Is justice good? Plato's Republic, Book II

A phrase that stuck out to me right from the beginning (one that I feel puts the whole chapter into layman's terms) is when Glaucon says "is there in your opinion a kind of good that we would choose to have not because we desire its consequences, but because we delight in it for its own sake ... leave no after effects other than the enjoyment in having them?" (357b) I do not think everything in this world is done because there is a desired end result that benefits the doer. Often times this is the case, but I have seen many cases of the opposite. For this reason, I am in agreement with Socrates.

Having said that, Glaucon is of the mindset that everything is done for a selfish end result. He says, "and this, then, is the genesis and being of justice; it is a mean between what is best--doing injustice without paying the penalty--and what is worst--suffering injustice without being able to avenge oneself. The just is in the middle between these two, cared for not because it is good but because it is honored due to a want of vigor in doing injustice." (359a) According to him, we all naturally want what is better for ourselves and in wanting this we are all secretly striving for injustice. To be honest, I could see this argument because I think in any normal, non-suicidal human being, there is the immediate reaction to save oneself from danger, even if that person decides to not act upon it and save others, that immediate desire was there. But who's to say that wanting to live is unjust? Is our purpose in life to make sure everyone around us is served first, or is that just common courtesy?

Admeimantus comes in to defend his brother and makes the argument that what is important is being unjust but having a reputation of being just, i.e. doing what is wrong and shrouding it in "right" in order to get away with it. He even mentions that the gods would prefer us to do wrong and then shower them with gifts and praises in an attempt to get back into their good graces. (I can't remember the line number for this one) This alone contradicts any sort of image I had of the higher power because my God would rather be do the right thing in the first place as opposed to doing wrong and then later asking for forgiveness. But I suppose that we are dealing with different gods.

Socrates really puts everything into perspective with his example of building a city. The end point of that example was to say that it is better to 1) be able to do one thing very good instead of many things moderately good and 2) that working together, not just as a city, but as a group of cities, as a society is much more beneficial, maybe even absolutely necessary to survival. And once we have established that notion, it is safe to say that we have to strive what is best for everyone if we can even think of what is best for ourselves because no one can survive all on their own. One man cannot survive alone in city, and one city cannot survive alone among all the cities. (all of 374) Using this example, I completely agree. Before we can even think of ourselves we have to think of the "greater good," which means we have to strive to be just and that is it more beneficial to even ourselves to look out for the good of everyone because you need that backup, that support--you cannot do it alone.

Admeimantus and Glaucon make some interesting arguments for opposing what I have always been taught was good and moral (justice), but thus far I am still in agreement with Socrates that justice is better and more beneficial than injustice.


EDIT: By the way, this is Raven...